As brilliant as the Free Radical is, all of Rufus’ criticisms ring true to me (and I own two of them and a Big Dummy.) The Xtracycle design will become a full-fledged platform if and only if alternatives to the current v-rack/Freeloader/Snapdeck combo are developed. Think tool boxes or ladder racks; racks for hauling 5-gallon buckets, or maybe rectangular heavy-duty wire or nylon mesh baskets. Devices that would make full use of the Xtracycle design’s potential. Until then, it’s a bike with a really long wheelbase and really big bags—which is why I love it, but not what distinguishes it from other longtail designs.

Goofy brake spec aside, I think the Ute is a legitimate longtail design and Kona deserves a little credit for going out on that limb. The Big Dummy was developed in the context of a partnership between Surly and Xtracycle (IIRC, Xrtacycle approached Surly) and faulting Kona for not being part of something likely both secret (before the BD proto showed up at Interbike) and proprietary demonstrates an incomplete understanding of how new product development typically works. It would be one thing to fault Kona if we knew they had turned down an invitation from Xrtacycle to participate in developing its own longtail, but I haven’t heard or read anything to indicate that such was the case. Really, if all one wants is a bike that could carry 4 large panniers, why wouldn’t the much-cheaper Ute be the better choice?

Personally, I like the versatility of the Xtracycle design (as evidenced in these photos) but wouldn’t fault someone for buying the Ute.

As to corporate motivations, there are many possibilities — maybe Kona *wanted* to follow the Xtracycle standard, but they couldn’t afford licensing fees. Maybe Surly got exclusive rights to being Xtracycle compatible. I worked in an industry where intellectual property was a major issue. Sometimes you’d have to deliberately make your design different just so you wouldn’t get sued. Unless the Xtracycle standard is “Open Source”, I don’t think we can assume that Kona is the big bad corporation.

That being said, all I know is that I’m looking forward to NOT using my 16mpg minivan and instead using my 2 wheel, runs-on-water -and -gives-me-exercise bike.

Thanks,
Albert

An Open Letter to Kona — Top 10 Ideas for Working with, Not Against, Xtracycle …

http://johngarrish.blogspot.com/2008/04/dear-kona-top-10-ideas-for-working-with.html

Take a look at that photo . . . . I’m guessing the long red bag is about the same size as the Xtracycle bag since the cargo area on my Ute is a little bigger than that of my wife’s Xtracycle. I don’t know when Kona is going to offer this . . . but I bet they are thinking about it:

I can only assume that the bike in your photo was a Kona prototype . . . as these just landed in the US about two weeks ago when I got mine.

- rear disc brake . . . who needs it? 70% of braking power comes from the front . . . and this probably saves a chunk of money.
- 700c wheels are way faster, more efficient and can certainly handle loads, I have them on both of our cargo bikes, and was pleased to see this choice. Again, think about touring bikes, most serious tourers have 700c wheels.

Rufus

I can totally agree with a number of your points — -the idea of the integrated frame being better is not lost on me. I just wish they had done some of it differently and had shown more respect to the folks at Xtracycle for the longbike trail they have blazed.

I’m sure Kona _has_ put plenty of thought into the design…they make great bikes! It just so happens that I don’t agree with all their choices. I mean, what’s up with no rear disc brake mount and 700c only wheels?

I also strongly disagree with your bag preference. Some waterproof flaps would be nice, but even in Seattle it hasn’t been a big deal. I certainly don’t want to have to deal with four separate (easily stolen) pannier-style packs.

I love that I can throw a my hefty laptop back, a half rack of beer and two pairs of kids ski boots and two pairs of rental skis into the side loaders and not still have room for a five-year old to tuck his feet into them so he isnt too cold.
That’s not going to happen with the “touring standard” style bags.

Your preference for this format right here tells me we probably have different needs for our longbikes; those needs, I’m sure, dictate the type of bikes we think we want to ride/own.

Overall, I think we are in complete agreement that anything we can do to get people out of cars and onto pedals is a good move. I very happy that the Ute is working out for you.
-Tim

- price – $400 for the basic Xtracycle and you still have to provide a bike AND piece it together. This is great if you know a lot about bikes or mechanics . . . but isn’t really that appealing for someone who normally drives an SUV. These are the people that we need to get on bikes and stop preaching to the choir.

- heavy – A ground up design is significantly lighter (also, what is wrong with aluminum . . . with todays technology, it is lighter, more durable and less expensive than steel . . . people go on about ride quality, but this is the type of useless “I’m cool” minutia that intimidate the regular folks and keep them in thier cars)

- size – With a ground up design, the wheel base can be significantly shorter with the same cargo space . . . which is easier for urban dwellers that need to go up stairs and in elevators.

- ride – The Xtracycle is whippy relative to a bike with an integrated design . . . not to mention the aforementioned factors contributing to a better ride.

- bags – What is so great about the Xtracycle bags that you would design a bike around it? They aren’t easily removable for shopping, not waterproof, no cover, expensive. The Kona bike comes with 2 bags and has a capacity for 4 . Also, you can hook on or adapt any number of aftermarket bags as Kona uses a simple hook system similar to what has been used on touring bikes for at least 60 years . . . how’s that for a standard?

Your down with The Man rhetoric may seem cool, but is it really true? I just got my Kona and I believe that they have probably put more thought in this than you think . . . and this is only the first model year. Also, as others have pointed out, this category is good for everybody and we should welcome any brands into the fold. (FYI, Surly is owned by QBP which is one of the largest companies in the cycling industry . . . Kona is owned by two guys).

Your friend,
Rufus

thanks!

Kona may have had reasons for their choices, but I still wish they had made _different_ ones and made plans with a little more thought about long-term implications.

…and Scott… Your bikes are sweet!